Yahoo’s new pretty maps are doomed (and so are Microsoft’s)
Has Google disrupted the businesses of Yahoo and Microsoft? Yes! It got me out of bed to write this post. No, that’s not the disruption I’m talking about (I’ll hopefully be able to take a couple of days off of blogging unless someone else announces something cool between now and the weekend).
To see how you don’t need to look any further than the rejuvenated mapping world.
First, congrats to Yahoo. The new map service you guys made is really killer. Inspiring, even. Here’s TechCrunch’s revealing of it. Here’s Yahoo’s blog about it.
But, it’s doomed. So is our Virtual Earth.
Why? Cause we don’t even realize that Google is playing in the Superbowl and left us playing for the high school championships. It’s nice to win the high school championships, but it isn’t close to the Superbowl.
Now, those are heady words. But, to see just how much disruption Google is wacking us with let me take you to Sand Hill Road in Palo Alto. Now, you might not know about Sand Hill Road. But, it’s where the world’s top venture capitalists are. You do not get an address on Sand Hill Road without understanding how to build a profitable business.
Last week I visted a few startups on Sand Hill Road. One was Zvents. I’ve written about them before.
I want you to visit them again. And again. And again. Until you understand the new Google gold rush that’s underway.
Hint: Yahoo and Microsoft’s employees need to get this.
What do they need to get?
That it’s not about maps, it’s about the advertising platform that Google has built. It’s not about prettiness, it’s about who has the most user generated content (I still hate that term).
Huh?
First, let’s focus on the advertising platform component of how Google is disrupting Yahoo and Microsoft.
Google pays Web site owners MAJOR DOLLARS to put its advertising component (er, service) on its Web site.
Visit Zvents. Click on one of the featured events.
See the Google ad component there?
Now, tell me again why that can’t be a Yahoo or Microsoft ad component?
I’ll tell you why. Google’s ad component pays better because of its dominance in search (and, because they told all the banner advertising people and companies to screw off and die — they understood that users will click on blue underlined text and are being rewarded for that understanding).
Quick, what else do you see on the Zvents page?
I see a Google map. With a Google logo.
What don’t you see? No Yahoo map. No Yahoo logo. No Microsoft Virtual Earth map. No Microsoft Virtual Earth logo.
Disruption!
But, it gets worse. Let’s head over to the Yahoo Maps API page. Damn, they’ve done a nice job. It’s clean. It’s easy to understand. It’s sexy. But only until you get to the bottom of the page. Look for “Rate Limit.”
Disruption!
What is there? Here, I’ll copy and paste the text for you. “The Yahoo! Maps Embeddedable APIs (the Flash and AJAX APIs are limited to 50,000 queries per IP per day and to non-commercial use.”
Aha! Yahoo has bean counters too. Don’t feel bad Yahoo. They run the place here at Microsoft too. But, they don’t get what Google is doing to them.
Google is building an advertising platform. It is disrupting our businesses. And we’re letting them do it.
Now, convince Zvents to take that Google Map off of their page and put a Yahoo one (or a Virtual Earth one). Hint: they won’t do it. Why? For two reasons:
1) The Yahoo and Virtual Earth licensing terms keep them from putting the map next to a Google advertising component.
2) There’s a perception that Google will treat companies who stick with all of its components better (maybe by giving a discount in the future, maybe by serving out better ads, maybe, by, alas, making both components better through using attention data!
3) They know that putting Google logos on their site is “cooler” and “more buzz generating” than putting Yahoo or Microsoft logos on their site (and they’d be right, heck, I work for Microsoft and I’m talking about their site).
But, it gets worse for Yahoo and Microsoft. Why?
User generated content. Yes, I still hate that term. But it’s key to how to build a very profitable and sticky business.
I believe Google is going to get there first. Why? Just because they have a development model that lets them move very quickly and get stuff out the door faster than Microsoft or Yahoo. Why do I believe that? Past behavior. Google had its new UI out months before Microsoft and Microsoft had its new UI out months before Yahoo.
Disruption!
So, now, Google will not only have a great advertising platform in place, a great mapping component (I still like it better than Yahoo’s, by the way), but you’ll be seeing that component improve right in front of your eyes through the addition of user generated content. What do I mean?
Well, let’s say you know my favorite Sushi place in Bellevue WA. Here it is on Google’s map. By the way, Google’s map found it INSTANTLY while Yahoo said there were no sushi places in Bellevue. Microsoft’s Virtual Earth, by the way, found it too!
Now, let’s say I want to put a photo of the front of the store on the map for you to see. Let’s say I also want to take pictures of the menu. And write a little review.
Wouldn’t that make the map more useful? It would.
More disruption ahead!
So, what can we do to disrupt Google?
Make it possible to take the Google map out of that page and put in a Microsoft or Yahoo one (and keep it next to a Google AdSense bar). That will require telling the bean counters to sit down and be quiet. That won’t be easy. Like I said, they run the world, and we are rapacious, greedy, businesspeople who don’t like to share a service that costs tens of millions of dollars). Google knows this and is laughing all the way to the bank.
Clone the Google API, RossCode says. Clone the Google API, Geek News Central says. Clone the Google API, David Mercer says. Clone the Google API, Alex Barnett says. Clone the Google API, the blogosphere says.
Disruptive!
November 3rd, 2005 at 6:19 am
Maps: Let me play
Scoble writes about map and APIs: Why? Cause we don’t even realize that Google is playing in the Superbowl and left us playing for the high school championships. It’s nice to win the high school championships, but it isn’t close to th…
November 3rd, 2005 at 6:44 am
You know what would be really cool with all these map applications popping up?
Actually having them work for people living outside the states.
I live in Denmark, and the highes zoom level I can get is half the country. For me these are not map applications - they are atlas applications (no pun intended).
This is the same both for Virtual Earth, Google Maps and Yahoo (which doesn’t even seem to display europe at all). (Google Earth actually allows zooming all the way in, and to see roads in Denmark - nice).
It’s a little frustrating to be cut out of using the maps - I only hope that MS, Google, Yahoo etc. realizes that we are some 5 billion other people out here in the world who also wants to use these applications :-)
November 3rd, 2005 at 6:49 am
Dang. Scoble, you are writing some great stuff at the mo - keep up the great work.
November 3rd, 2005 at 6:53 am
Micael: we do, but it takes time and resources to build out the world. We’re working on it. We have the data. Mappoint, for instance, is available for more than 20 countries, if I remember right.
November 3rd, 2005 at 7:01 am
You love “I love Sushi”? Dang. If you’re cool with dinner, I’ll buy. hahaha. That place in Bellevue rocks. Seattle one is pretty good too but I believe the parking is still as horrendous as ever.
November 3rd, 2005 at 7:07 am
Ben: yeah, I love I love Sushi. :-)
Chris Pirillo loves it too.
November 3rd, 2005 at 7:07 am
[...] Good Lord. This post by Robert Scoble, a Microsoft employee, makes me more bullish on Google than I already am. Read it to understand why Google has the edge, and why this new product from Yahoo! won’t put a dent in the Google behemoth. [...]
November 3rd, 2005 at 7:11 am
Your post makes no sense. I read it three times then gave up. Seriously, why don’t you just go work at Google and call it a day.
November 3rd, 2005 at 7:16 am
Dare: the fact that you say that scares me. Why don’t you ask some questions and I’ll try to get you to see what’s going on here.
November 3rd, 2005 at 7:20 am
Oh, and Dare, you don’t get it. I don’t want to work for Google. Looks like you do, though. What, you willing to be disrupted all the way there?
November 3rd, 2005 at 7:23 am
Dare, surely there’s a certain amount of shock-tactics about this post.
But the points raised are good ones. The Google eco-system has lock-ins due to the synergy between it’s various components. For Yahoo or Microsoft to break that they need to explicitly address those barriers to switching.
November 3rd, 2005 at 7:24 am
Scoble, you need to chill. 3-4 more “MS is doomed” posts (which is how the posts come across) and even I’d want to fire you.
=========
November 3rd, 2005 at 7:27 am
Jeremy: good point. But, did you see the stock price this morning? I do. The market is firing us anyway.
So, what’s the key to survival here? Hint: it isn’t to sit back and wait for your business to be disrupted. It’s to do some disrupting of your own.
If I get fired for trying to do that, well, then, what kind of message will that send?
November 3rd, 2005 at 7:31 am
[...] Here’s some random blogosphere buzz worth pondering. We’ve heard about Google being the “new” Microsoft. Has Google disrupted the businesses of Yahoo and Microsoft? Scoble thinks so! So, what can Microsoft do to disrupt Google? Clone the Google API! [...]
November 3rd, 2005 at 7:32 am
I think it makes a lot of sense, but I think there’s a few tricky pieces. Syndication revenue as a % of Google revenue falls every quarter (it’s still growing, but Google products are becoming more and more important). Worse, it’s a far less profitable part of their business because it’s much harder to influence user behavior and, of course, you have to pay syndication partners. Clearly syndication does help Google attract more advertisers, but if I were Microsoft, I’d be a lot more focused on using AdCenter to attract advertisers to Vista and OfficeLive and Virtual Earth, and driving end user adoption of those services. The user is simply going to respond better to a consistent, clean experience for search and relevant ads. In my view, the relationship between a Google and a 3rd party site like Zvents is very tenuous and not sustainable in the long term. Google won’t be making it’s money when the user sees ads next to the list of possible events, it will make it when the user leaves the service, gets directions from Google maps and is asked if he wants to have a pizza slice waiting to be picked up on the way there. I know that’s kind of your point, but it tells me that third parties won’t be suckers for the Google API in the long term. I’d be shocked if Zvents’ 2 year business plan mentions Google.
November 3rd, 2005 at 7:33 am
Jeremy, I don’t see “MS is doomed” in his post. It’s simply a great article how is Google building new “web ad” platform where everybody is happy. Unfortunately, even guys like Dare doesn’t get it…
November 3rd, 2005 at 7:43 am
Scoble, you don’t need to preach at me mate ;) Just make sure your criticism is more constructive than destructive. I know you’ve had a bit of an epiphany and it’s exciting to re-align your vision of the tech industry.
Good for you.
But be smart in how you share it. I really don’t want to see you get fired (though… the opportunities that’d open up would be very interesting to watch…).
November 3rd, 2005 at 7:44 am
Oh, and Richard:
“But, it’s doomed. So is our Virtual Earth.”
November 3rd, 2005 at 7:47 am
Dare is right, this post doesn’t make much sense.
Google doesn’t release more or better products than we do, period. If you believe that, then you’re not paying close enough attention. I have so many products in our pipeline that part of my job is to run air traffic control among the various Yahoo properties to ensure that two properties don’t release a product on the same day. I am quite sure that nobody at Google has to do that.
As for bean counting, serving up Web Services APIs costs money, just like long distance phone service; you and Dave are being incredibly disingenuous when you attempt to link Web services being free-as-in-beer to “open standards”. It looks like Dave would like Google to provide its APIs free of charge, in essence benefiting monetarily without having to make the investment. That’s not how business works. If you want this kind of thing to be free and unlimited, why don’t we start with the phone at your place? Can I declare your home telephone an ‘open standard’ and have all my friends come by and make calls at your expense? Can we order some pizzas on your credit card while we’re at it?
November 3rd, 2005 at 7:50 am
Jeremy has said some good stuff so I won’t repeat what he’s said.
Besides Jeremy’s points, I quite frankly am turned off by people obsessing about competitors. If we want to build kick ass products then we should obsess about our customers. All these posts about how we suck and Google rocks so we have to figure out how to cut off their air supply come off as showing an unattractive side of Microsoft.
PS: We don’t suck as much as you think and Google doesn’t rock as much as you think.
PPS: It’s a marathon not a sprint. It isn’t about where we are today but where we’ll be in a year, two and even five years down the road.
November 3rd, 2005 at 7:51 am
Jeremy: that’s different than “Microsoft is doomed.” :-)
Also, I’m giving very constructive criticism. Make our licensing the simplest, most open, easiest to understand, out there. It’s not.
Here’s Virtual Earth’s:
http://www.viavirtualearth.com/VVE/Resources/CommercialUse.notitia.ashx
Here’s Google’s:
http://www.google.com/apis/maps/terms.html
Here’s Yahoo’s:
http://developer.yahoo.net/maps/index.html
Now, Virtual Earth’s is better than Yahoo’s by a mile. But still not clearly better than Google’s.
Which is why you are seeing a lot more map mashups with Google’s maps than with Virtual Earth’s.
Change the license, and you disrupt Google.
Dare, if I wanted to work at Google I wouldn’t be talking about this stuff so much. I’d just keep my mouth shut and go there.
November 3rd, 2005 at 7:52 am
Dare: Bang on. Customers are what matter, and personally I’m liking MS’s customer attitude more than Google’s these days.
November 3rd, 2005 at 7:53 am
Dare: >If we want to build kick ass products then we should obsess about our customers.
Maybe I didn’t make it clear. I visited ZVents. A customer. They told me why they don’t use Virtual Earth or Yahoo’s Maps.
I’m telling you what you need to do to get their business.
This WHOLE POST is customer focused. It’s not about Google at all. It’s about a customer who told me that Microsoft is too difficult to do business with.
Disruption.
November 3rd, 2005 at 7:53 am
Sorry Scoble, but the Google one reads much more restrictively to me than the VE one.
November 3rd, 2005 at 7:54 am
“…while Yahoo said there were no sushi places in Bellevue…”
I think the problem is you don’t know how to use the Yahoo maps interface. I searched for bellevue, wa and then sushi in the “find on the map” box and it found 208 results. Disruption!
November 3rd, 2005 at 7:54 am
MSN has not launched their AdCenter yet. So let’s say that John Doe wants to advertise Viagra, well he goes to Google’s adsense page and checks out the auction for the word, wow a crap load of money per click through.
Well that just won’t do, you see! Let’s head over to MSN. Now, there are less advertisers. Now it doesn’t matter how popular the placement of advertisement is, we are paying for clickthroughs, so as long as some people see it, I am getting more click throughs per dollar.
So in a nutshell, Supply and Demand, it’s the weakness to googles advertising market. Supply and demand states that everyone will profit the same. No one cares wether the add is an MSN one or a GOOGLE one, especially if they look alike. What do you think Robert? Will MSN start collecting some pie once they get their Advertising program running on all four wheels?
November 3rd, 2005 at 7:55 am
Maybe you should let other develops earn a living, christ, why would I develop for Windows if you guys are just going to ‘clone’ anything that becomes too popular for your liking.
You’re moving in on Adobe’s territory, you’re moving in on various security companies’ turf and you stabbed Borland in the face not so very long ago.
Maybe Microsoft should realize that it kind of sucks at somethings and that those areas should be better handled by third parties.
November 3rd, 2005 at 7:57 am
Jeremy: howso?
It sure isn’t how it’s perceived out there by real customers (ZVents is only one of such customers I’ve talked with about this).
They aren’t forcing sites to take the search UI, for instance.
And, unlike Yahoo’s, they aren’t limiting its usefulness through ping limits.
November 3rd, 2005 at 7:59 am
Nimit: there aren’t 208 sushi places in Bellevue WA. That’s bad.
Virtual Earth shows JUST the 10 places that are actually in Bellevue.
November 3rd, 2005 at 8:00 am
Dvorak: oh, so now you’re asking us to collude with our competitors? Hmmm. Interesting. I guess you aren’t a capitalist.
November 3rd, 2005 at 8:03 am
Hi Robert,
I’m going to go with Dare on this one. I don’t get it. I get what you’re saying and really I agree with the whole advertising platform thing and that Microsoft should get on it, but what you’re talking about are details. And details only for people who care to put up Google ads to bring in some extra dough. What I DON’T here you talking about is the big picture of what these map applications are used for. They’re only a small piece of the puzzle. How do map applications fit in with other applications to truely become powerful? You started to hit on that.
“Now, let’s say I want to put a photo of the front of the store on the map for you to see. Let’s say I also want to take pictures of the menu. And write a little review.”
IMHO, THAT is where the power is. Isn’t that what everyone talks about in Web 2.0 is applications and data being built by everyone so we can all benefit from our collective knowledge (or have I read it all wrong? ;))
So yah, to sum it up, while I agree with you on individual points, I don’t agree that Google is dominating because they have a better Map API or better advertising schemes. Definitely important points, but what about the big picture of how all these cool little applications will be used together? *cough* live.com?!?! ;)
Btw, I’m joining Jeff’s team in a bit over a week, maybe we could go out to lunch sometime (since I’m guessing I’ll be right down the hall from you). ;) I’ve never had Sushi before! :P
November 3rd, 2005 at 8:05 am
Great Points Erik, and I agree with you. But I think the most important thing is, advertisers don’t give a damn how nice your widgets are, they are looking for value in their advertising dollar. If MSN is less popular, and they sell in auction format, just like Google, they will Steal money from Google.
Which, my friends, is THE ONLY REASON Microsoft is doing any of this web stuff in the first place.
November 3rd, 2005 at 8:07 am
Erik: hey, I’m not saying I’m right about all this stuff. Maybe I’m wrong. I wish Dare would have convinced me of that. But instead he said I confused him, didn’t ask any questions, insulted me, and went and took his toys home. That doesn’t seem like someone who wants to learn (or, someone who has some great insights to share).
I’m mostly just passing along what the customers are telling me and putting that together with what the CEO of Yahoo and the CEO of AOL and the founder of Craig’s List, and the Chairman of the Washington Post company, told Google last week.
I’d love to go to sushi!
November 3rd, 2005 at 8:09 am
The results it found weren’t about all the sushi places in bellvue. A normal use case is when a person wants to find a sushi place around where you live, not restricted to just one town, and there must be that many places in the area or “on the map” that match the search term sushi.
And anyway, the point was that you didn’t use the Yahoo maps correctly and it’s not right to criticize yahoo for something you don’t know how to do.
November 3rd, 2005 at 8:10 am
When you copy Google make sure the linking behavior is the same. When I followed the link to the sushi place on google, the back button brought me back to your blog. When I did it on Microsoft virtual earth I couldn’t get off the map without going to history and backing up 2 entries.
November 3rd, 2005 at 8:10 am
And anyway, the point was that you didn’t use the Yahoo maps correctly and it’s not right to criticize yahoo for something you don’t know how to do.
I disagree. Users are always right my friend.
November 3rd, 2005 at 8:16 am
Robert,
You really need to learn to take criticism better. “Took my toys home”? I went to get ready for work. Anyway, I’m on my way off to work so I’ll leave you to continue your Google adulation and Microsoft bashing.
You ask for questions but there are none to ask. Since you are misinformed, it is hard to ask you anything.
1.) Google Maps doesn’t have a monetization component. Google doesn’t give me a way to make money from using their Maps. However VE has committed to revsharing with developers by early next year. See http://blogs.msdn.com/cthota/archive/2005/09/09/462841.aspx
2.) Since Microsoft doesn’t have an AdSense competitor, it is pointless to keep bashing us for not having one and even worse making us seem ‘evil’. We have AdCenter currently in production, so far I haven’t seen one comment from you about dogfooding it and providing feedback. Instead all I see is you bashing us because it hasn’t shipped yet.
3.) Clone the Google API? WTF? What does that have to do with anything?
November 3rd, 2005 at 8:18 am
Hey again, Scoble, so I don’t know if there’s something wrong with your comments or I’m just dumb, but I swear half the comments that I see now just weren’t there before. I only saw Dare’s first comment to you, didn’t see anything else after until just now. Sorry if I sounded like a jerk agreeing with Dare. Not what I meant at all. Being rude is hardly ever appropriate. ;) Sushi it is, cya soon! :)
November 3rd, 2005 at 8:20 am
When I read Robert’s article I immediately knew that he was talking about customers and disruptive add framework created by Google for those customers.
It surprises me that some of the big names here see something else in it or don’t understand what he wants to say…
November 3rd, 2005 at 8:21 am
Hi Robert, I’m going OT … but have you a standard wordpress account?
How can you customize the template of your wordpress blog?
November 3rd, 2005 at 8:28 am
Richard, not sure if I’m a “big name” or not, but I’m happy to be wrong or to not “get” something. It means I’m human, which is always a nice reminder.
As I said, I’m glad Robert’s realizing something he thinks is important. That’s good. But from where I’m sitting this sounds like a whole lot of “Google’s got this right, Microsoft is getting its ass kicked and there isn’t much we’re doing about it.”
And that’s just not going to help anyone. Working with people like Dare and Patrick and Richard to revolutionize the web would be, to me, far more important than simply talking about it in public.
The more I think about it, the more I realize that Robert is probably a much better “backroom” person than a “frontroom” one. He’s a great frontroom one, but there are few people better at creating ties, seeing trends and show when a company is off course than Robert.
And, realistically, that’s something that’s typically more effective when communicated externally than internally. Because customers benefit when you get buy-in. They don’t when you just create conflict (not that that’s all Robert creates of course).
Anyways, best of luck Robert. I need to get some work done now ;-)
November 3rd, 2005 at 8:36 am
[...] There has been an explosion in the world of travel technology with the advent of Google Maps and other services. Google Maps rules the map marketplace for many reasons as detailed in the Scoble post, but mostly because of the opne API which allows other services to build upon the technology. The services that have spawned from this range for the cutting edge to the inane but they have added so many features to the original service that others will never catch up. Puerto Rico misses out on this very basic jump in techonolgy because we can’t get our maps straight. Let’s take a landmark, one that the average traveller would use, say the Caribe Hilton Hotel. The map services put it in Old San Juan. Not next to San Geronimo, *in* Old San Juan. Now that is simply not going to cut it when people depend on these to get to their travel destinations. It is all because Puerto Rico has never had any intiative to get their maps straight. Maps are pretty much useless if you addressing system in completely FUBAR. Puerto Rico’s address system is beyond repair by any means know to man, barring a tsunami sompletely washing the island clean and giving us the oportunity to start fresh. Perhaps the more fundamental issue is that Puerto Rico and Puertoricans do not regard this as a problem. Or even an issue for that matter. So the world will pass us by. Tourism sould explde if people could actually find where they are supposed to go. Not in Puerto Rico. [...]
November 3rd, 2005 at 8:42 am
Jeremy: Microsoft is getting its ass kicked and there isn’t much we’re doing about it.
Oh, I did NOT say that!
In fact, right now I’m talking with the Virtual Earth team. And you do note that I use a component of Virtual Earth on my blog, don’t you?
Dare: Google will have monetization of maps soon. Last week McDonalds and Starbucks executives were at the conference I attended. Now, why would that be? Hmmmm, what would they LOVE to put on maps?
November 3rd, 2005 at 8:47 am
Yahoo goes for Flash
Amid all the buzz about Web 2.0 services run by AJAX, such as Google Maps and Microsoft’s new Windows Live , it’s interesting to see that Yahoo has gone with Flash for its new and improved Yahoo Maps site. But is it better than Google Map…
November 3rd, 2005 at 8:51 am
Jeremy,
thanks for the response and I see your point.
“The more I think about it, the more I realize that Robert is probably a much better “backroom” person than a “frontroom” one.”
It remembers me Office Space movie and that guy who was moved to the basement…;-)
November 3rd, 2005 at 8:55 am
To: mathewingram.com/work
I think that Flash will rule again. It’s simply much better choice for a rich web apps…
November 3rd, 2005 at 9:03 am
[...] Scoble brings up a good point in this post. Its a bit long, but worth a read. I’ve thought all along that Google really had it nailed, but I could never articulate why. Until now… Scobleizer - Microsoft Geek Blogger » Yahoo’s new pretty maps are doomed (and so are Microsoft’s) [...]
November 3rd, 2005 at 9:05 am
Good luck getting a Flash based site to work on your cell phone… Google Maps (through a third party service) works just fine though even with the scrolling.
Also if the reason Robert couldn’t find the sushi place on Yahoo maps was because he didn’t know how to use it properly then that is another failing of Yahoo maps.
November 3rd, 2005 at 9:06 am
Richard: If only the development of web apps with Flash was easier, I’d agree.
November 3rd, 2005 at 9:09 am
Jase: So when I try and use the scroll wheel to zoom in and out on GMaps it’s THEIR fault it isn’t working? Cool. Notch up another failure to do the work the user wants you to do for Google.
November 3rd, 2005 at 9:14 am
Entertaining tidbit…
Google: mentioned 70+ times on Robert’s homepage
Microsoft: mentioned 0 times by Robert (though a dozen or so in the sidebar
And it’s a wonder people think there’s an issue of balance?
November 3rd, 2005 at 9:15 am
Jeremy,
Not being able to zoom with the scroll wheel is much less of a usability problem with a maps application than not being able to find what you want on the map, which is the whole purpose of the map in the first place.
November 3rd, 2005 at 9:18 am
You said he “using it wrong” wasn’t his fault, but Yahoo’s. Just flipping it around. If I “use Gmaps wrong”, is that their fault too?
November 3rd, 2005 at 9:27 am
Jeffrey : “Google doesn’t release more or better products than we do, period. If you believe that, then you’re not paying close enough attention.”
The point raised by Scoble’s post is not whether Google’s individual products are better, but whether their interdependence has created a network externality which makes switching away from them harder.
November 3rd, 2005 at 9:28 am
Jeremy: I wrote about Microsoft a LOT. So today I wrote about Google a LOT. I guess I’m supposed to be a dutiful Microsoft mouthpiece, right, and stay in that corner? Uh, OK.
November 3rd, 2005 at 9:32 am
Somebody finally got it - thanks Phil.
November 3rd, 2005 at 9:32 am
[...] I think Scoble said it right when he said, “Yahoo’s new pretty maps are doomed (and so are Microsoft’s).“ [...]
November 3rd, 2005 at 9:37 am
Robert: People said you’d been on a Google high recently. I was just illustrating it. I think you’d konw me better than to think I want you to be an MS mouthpiece :)
November 3rd, 2005 at 9:37 am
Jeremy - I was playing with a digital web maps via Flash about 5 years ago. It allowed a nice level of zooming, writing custom data to the maps and as you mentioned - it was easier and faster to develop.
And Jaseone - yes, at that time nobody thought about a mobile market ;-)
November 3rd, 2005 at 9:40 am
Scoble,
You got it right. Thanks for articulating thoughts I have been having lately, and putting them together in a cogent way. Keep listening to the users, not the developers. The users are the boss, the users are in charge, they have the attention, and the money to buy it. The developers are not listening. They need to listen…
November 3rd, 2005 at 9:44 am
Now for more important stuff. Dude there’s bette sushi out here. Try Izumi’s in Kirkland for example. Not sure if I can take you seriously anymore. ; )
November 3rd, 2005 at 9:50 am
Scoble, before Microsoft started creating half-baked web apps you weren’t in competition with Google’s other non-search offerings.
November 3rd, 2005 at 9:52 am
Zvents
Zvents seems to be generating a lot of buzz lately. Scoble even thinks this is a signal of the incoming doom for Yahoo! and MS mapping platforms, and that Google will be the winner, in the end.
Personally, I started playing with it just to see whethe…
November 3rd, 2005 at 9:52 am
Jeremy: >Robert: People said you’d been on a Google high recently
I wouldn’t call what I’m under a “high.” A high is when you feel good. And I am not feeling good. I would call it “Google awake.” If people think I’m high, I would suggest they look at the rate of increase in their profits again. If people aren’t paying attention maybe it’s because THEY are high.
November 3rd, 2005 at 9:53 am
Dvorak: that’s why they call it disruption.
Welcome to the disruptive world!
November 3rd, 2005 at 10:03 am
What I personally really find interesting about all of this is that at any moment Microsoft, Google or Yahoo could turn the tables. Building something cooler than the other guy isn’t really all that hard anymore. You just need the right attitude, passion and people.
As for Flash vs. AJAX development, they both really suck right now compared to smart client development. But since they’re a lot easier to deploy they rule the land. There’s definitely a lot of room to improve the web client development arena and everyone seems to be working on it these days.
November 3rd, 2005 at 10:21 am
Oh, so Disruptive is the codename for running other people out of the marketplace.
So when Ballmer gets on stage and flaps his arms while screaming DEVELOPERS! He’s really saying ‘don’t get too popular or we’ll disrupt you!’
Why not leave a piece of the pie for other people, there’s no need for Microsoft to muscle in on Adobe’s turf, sure there’s profit there, but there’s profit in renting heavy machinery or launching satellites into space, but Microsoft isn’t going after those markets.
It’s one thing if your products are awesome enough to compete on their own, but look at Microsoft Money, for a while there you couldn’t even give it away to satisfied Quicken users.
November 3rd, 2005 at 10:22 am
Some compelling discussion in this thread.
Scoble - you are onto something on the advertising front although I’m not sure you know what or how to compare between the different affiliate programs because you aren’t out there running commercial sites with advertising … are you?
Therefore you saying that Google pays better is heresy at best. Who told you that? Last month in our business on a percentage of traffic to revenue, YPN actually paid better than Google but neither of these two were our best performing affiliate program.
If you were running sites with advertising then you might have even more ideas how Microsoft could use Adcenter as the backbone for kickstarting some of the other projects. It’s a good train of thought you have and I hope you can get some people with that kind of juice to move forward on this stuff.
Sadly, I think you are just a voice in the wind here. Yeah, a louder voice than some, but I wonder if it will actually do anything to impact the company so the stock is positively changed.
If Virtual Earth could make it so that Adcenter can be used by Joe Webmaster and there aren’t any rate limits when the ads are used, that could be pretty seductive to those who have ad space available.
I’m going to follow Dare’s link now and read more up on their proposed plans. Think I heard something on that front and am curious …
November 3rd, 2005 at 10:47 am
Phil wrote: The point raised … is not whether Google’s individual products are better, but whether their interdependence has created a network externality which makes switching away from them harder.
Couldn’t we replace Google with Microsoft and network with platform?
November 3rd, 2005 at 10:51 am
Hey, I’ve been using the new Microsoft Streets and Trips with the GPS Locator….it’s so cool. Works on my Pocket PC too!
The new Yahoo Maps can’t find my house!
How can I get Google Maps in my car?
November 3rd, 2005 at 11:34 am
I like today’s smart MS aquisition of FolderShare. That’s a very good step for Windows/Office Live.
November 3rd, 2005 at 11:53 am
Robert are you sure you read the VirtualEarth and Google API terms properly that you linked to?
According to my reading you *can’t* use Google’s Map on a commercial site at all - “The API may be used only for services that are generally accessible to consumers without charge.”
Also note section 1.5 on advertising where Google are free to add advertising to the map at anytime. What happens if Google decides to start adding adverts to competitors of mine? You don’t a choice.
Now VirtualEarth offers:
- Free for non-commercial sites.
2 Options for commercial sites (remember Google doesn’t offer you the ability to use their maps on a commercial site):
1. Free use of VirtualEarth as long as you display the What/Where search boxes on the map.
2. If you don’t want to display the What/Where search boxes OR enter into a revenue-sharing advertising contract then you can pay MS via a service agreement to make use of Virtual Earth. This option kicks in Jan 2006.
And the Virtual Earth terms you link to make no mention of not allowing you to have a Google adsense link(s) on the same page.
So how is Google’s map API terms easier and better than Virtual Earths for a website developer? By my reading it’s exactly the opposite. So either I’ve misunderstood your comments on the map API terms, or misread the terms or you need to rtfm.
Cheers
November 3rd, 2005 at 12:33 pm
Lets not forget that Yahoo maps is in BETA, and brand new beta at that. So these little silly bugs like can’t find my house and cant’ find sushi should be resolved before it is finalized. That is the whole point of beta, to work these silly issues out.
The base technoloy and product, however, is by far the best out there. Btw, it seems Yahoo hasn’t made this clear enough, but there is an AJAX (google-like) version of this new maps too (right now available thru the api)…it’s not just in Flash.
November 3rd, 2005 at 12:37 pm
My comments: Microsoft is big. A big follower.
http://weblogs.asp.net/fmarguerie/archive/2005/11/03/429405.aspx
November 3rd, 2005 at 12:38 pm
Robert wrote: “…if I wanted to work at Google I wouldn’t be talking about this stuff so much. I’d just keep my mouth shut and go there.”
I agree with that. I am in no position to comment on the business strategies of all those companies but it seems to me that Googlers need to be more upset at this than Microsofties. Why? Because, IMO, even though Robert seems to be praising the competition, he is actually openly trying to block their way and directly aiming to capture their customers.
November 3rd, 2005 at 12:43 pm
Flash, AJAX and Yahoo Maps: Does the Technology Matter?
A few weeks ago I weighed in on the Flash vs Ajax debate, saying that I marginally prefer AJAX. Well, today saw the launch Yahoo Maps Beta, the third major entry in the online mapping space and the only service so far to use Flash. The other two …
November 3rd, 2005 at 1:11 pm
In case anyone’s still reading this far…. ;-)
For the “too bad it’s hard to develop in Flash” line above, this app was not developed in the Macromedia Flash authoring tool. It was created as XML files, then compiled to SWF, via Macromedia Flex 1.5.
That’s what the big news was last month, at the Macromedia MAX conference. Flex 2.0 is a standalone text-based creation tool for predictable rich interactivity across the range of the world’s machines.
The selected pool of tech bloggers at Memeorandum picked up on this particular Yahoo API and one of their initial interfaces, but completely missed the news last month about realworld XML RIA work. Yahoo Maps is great, but you need to know about Flex 2.0.
More here:
http://labs.macromedia.com/
Summary: If you can code HTML, you can code SWF. You’re enfranchised. :)
November 3rd, 2005 at 1:37 pm
The Beauty of Simplicity
“Marissa Mayer, who keeps Google’s home page pure, understands that less is more. Other tech companies are starting to get it, too. Here’s why making things simple is the new competitive advantage.”
http://www.fastcompany.com/subscr/100/index.html
November 3rd, 2005 at 1:41 pm
Robert, interesting post and lively discussion. However, I wish you would correct your post regarding Yahoo!’s ability to find sushi restaurants in Bellevue.
When you say “Yahoo said there were no sushi places in Bellevue”, I did not obtain the same results. I was able to find sushi restaurants in Bellevue (including I Love Sushi) through http://www.yahoo.com, local.yahoo.com and maps.yahoo.com. How is it that you couldn’t find any via Yahoo!?
Having such a broadly-read blog, I think you should either document how Yahoo! was not working for you or correct your post.
P.S. Goto: http://www.yahoo.com, search on “Bellevue, WA sushi” and I Love Sushi is the first result under “Local Results for sushi near Bellevue”.
November 3rd, 2005 at 1:42 pm
Well, there wasn’t an ounce of sense in that whole post. People are going to have trouble taking you seriously much anymore. I agree with Dare. And I read it 3 or 4 times too. Just go work for Google. And spare us your search engine rants.
November 3rd, 2005 at 1:58 pm
Awsome. Hands down one of the most enjoyable posts I’ve read of yours!
It really illustrates a problem that permeates the business right now. We’ve got bean counters on one side and spec writers on the other - but nobody has a clear focus on the overarching business objective.
1. What result do you want to achieve?
2. How do you get there?
3. What needs to be done in order to get there?
It takes a degree of “singlemindedness” which is difficult to achieve in a pluralistic (and somewhat fragmented) organization. Department/group agendas that aren’t aligned with the desired result do nothing but ensure the fatality of the effot.
November 3rd, 2005 at 1:59 pm
effort
November 3rd, 2005 at 2:15 pm
(see comment 71 above)
Funny, when you log in to your Foldershare account they are recommending that you “Enhance FolderShare with Google Desktop SearchTM”. I wonder how long Microsoft will allow that to continue…
November 3rd, 2005 at 2:19 pm
Dano,
Here’s what I did.
I went to http://maps.yahoo.com/beta/index.php#trf=0
In the box that says “Find on the map” I entered:
Sushi Bellevue WA
It reports “didn’t find anything for Sushi Bellevue WA.”
I then go http://maps.google.com and enter in the search box:
Sushi Bellevue WA
It comes back with 10 restaurants and puts them on the map.
November 3rd, 2005 at 2:29 pm
Thanks Robert… I got the same thing too. However, it is the beta version of their maps that you are using, but the “real” one. Perhaps that is the problem.
November 3rd, 2005 at 2:32 pm
As much as I would like to see the precedent taken, I cannot ever see MS cloning the Google APIs. To do so would effectively revoke their right to ever take legal action against projects like Mono or ReactOS for doing the same to them (should they ever become too popular).
November 3rd, 2005 at 3:06 pm
So much for scoble taking the week off. Stir the pot….
November 3rd, 2005 at 3:53 pm
Dare,
You are supposed to be a professional, publicly known Microsoft employee. Using words like WTF is not professional - reflects badly on you.
Scoble,
I fully agree with your comments and it makes complete sense.
-ron
November 3rd, 2005 at 4:19 pm
Rate Limit: I may be looking at a different page, but over at this page:
http://developer.yahoo.net/maps/simple/index.html
The page says this:
“The Yahoo! Maps Simple API has no rate limit.”
November 3rd, 2005 at 4:22 pm
He who rules the search, rules the net.
Google were the ones who have truly seen that people want to search and how they want it.
Search the web, search usenet (has been very instrumental in Google’s success - but they didn’t stop knowing people want to), search maps, news, earth (as in Google Earth).
Here and there they have been behind the curve (web-mail for example) but all in all they have a stranglehold on search technology. A though market. People can switch to a different search engine more easily than, say, an OS are Office Suite.
Someone remarked on the market outside the US. There are certainly chances there. That market is an afterthought. Being an early adaptor in some things I find that it’s first deployed in the US and later others are taken into consideration. And remember, Toyota succeeded in the USA because the started their offensive with the smaller cars, eventually knocking at the doors of Ford, GM and Chrysler, seated in a Toyota SUV.
November 3rd, 2005 at 4:32 pm
Steve, the page I was looking at is here:
http://developer.yahoo.net/maps/index.html (look under the “rate limit”).
November 3rd, 2005 at 5:25 pm
[...] わはは。何かとお騒がせな Scoble が、Yahoo’s new pretty maps are doomed (and so are Microsoft’s) と書いて、またも見事 tech.memeorandum のトップを飾ってます。sucks の次は doomed ですかあ。 でまあ中身はいろいろ面白いことも書かれてるんですが、その辺全部すっとばして、Google に勝つための結論は Clone the Google API! だそうです。そういえばなんか最近そういう話をYAMDAS現更新履歴でも読んだっけ。 [...]
November 3rd, 2005 at 5:30 pm
Yeah, but Microsoft is the only one who have a software product with a GPS locator in the stores that SELLING!
Just remember this, 7 years ago, I’ve never thought anyone would outdo Hotbot or Excite! so let’s not toot Google as the unbeatable contender….
November 3rd, 2005 at 5:30 pm
I can’t believe it, but I’m going to defend Scoble on this one. Dare is absolutely wrong. He is the one who is publicly saying that he’s jumping ship from Microsoft in 5 years, so what the hell does he care. Robert is actually taking a critical look at his company instead of making snide underhanded remarks about how he’s going to a better place in a few years. How sad that Microsoft employees have to bash each other in public forums. Could you all keep your dirty laundry to yourselves, please, and do something useful like finish Vista?
November 3rd, 2005 at 6:00 pm
Julie: When you copy Google make sure the linking behavior is the same.
AJAX technology screws with the history button; it needs to be explicitly allowed for. This whole release often / early BS just produces crappy product.
November 3rd, 2005 at 6:17 pm
Scoble, your grasp of the obvious has left me with wet pantaloons. Everybody knows what google’s planning on doing. The only question is how well will they be able to pull it off?
Even though you are a crackhead, I enjoy reading your blog.
Also, don’t forget to catch TNG nights on TBS.
Wil
November 3rd, 2005 at 6:36 pm
Yahoo new maps are Flash? Blah, I will never use them. Flash is off because it is pretty much only used to make flashing advertisements. So for me, Yahoo loses anyway irrespective of the rest of the debate here. I will never see if their maps are better or not.
BTW, I used to use Yahoo maps exclusively before google started doing it better and My Yahoo is still my main homepage so I’m not bashing Yahoo.
November 3rd, 2005 at 6:37 pm
Jesus this post caused controversy, and you know what it was NEEDED!
You seriously have to tell all the search companies to stop taking it in the rear and letting Google take over like this.
Copying the api is a step in the right direction, what happens when the 3 big players all have the same, cloned api?
This is where innovation kicks in; we have to see who is the best at it. The vista side bar, as much as i really hate wasted desktop real estate, will usher in the dominance of Microsoft.
By the time vista ships, live.com better be fixed and working better then ever. No more downloading Google toolbar, vista side bar!
The point I’m trying to make is, Google can churn out a new beta monthly, Microsoft you have until the launch of vista to get your act together. Scoble will tug on your leash for so long until you start running in the right direction by yourself.
November 3rd, 2005 at 7:16 pm
Scoble, only means well.
Like the guy who said, “Scoble should be fired!”, later commented Scoble walks a fine line.
It’s hard not to cross it sometimes.
Dare took offence, and he’s defending the product, that’s all fine and good.
Defend the product with solid points, and maybe Scoble admits he was a bit harsh, and perhaps even wrong.
Bash Scoble and you get nowhere.
Scoble should also understand, that people work hard on the product(VE or whatever), and when he just kicks the crap out of it on his blog and just praises the competitor; and has nothing positive to say at all about it.
Somebody is going to get irritated, angry and let loose.
Which is what happened.
I’ll go with Dare on this one, even though he’s from the “Mediocre MSN” dept.
Keep the balance Scoble!
- LaBomba
November 3rd, 2005 at 7:58 pm
A fascinating and insightful piece. A shame about some of the patronising replies. Stripped of ego, their argument seems to be that it’s wrong to praise a competitor or analyse why they’re succeeding. Yeah, that sure makes sense. ;-) I’ve no doubt Google keeps Bill G up at night, so your transparency of discussion, and the constituency you’ve built, are to be applauded.
More please. Because Google needs serious competition, as much as Microsoft does.
November 3rd, 2005 at 10:23 pm
Unrestricted APIs
I agree with Dave on this. And Robert. And Fred. And (partially) Richard. Companies, even big companies, especially big companies, need to open up their data without usage limits, or else they will make their services and themselves irrelevant.
At Te…
November 4th, 2005 at 4:25 am
[...] Robert Scoble wrote a significant post in his blog yesterday calling on Microsoft and Google to Clone the Google API. [...]
November 4th, 2005 at 5:01 am
Robert Scoble - Blogging’s Paris Hilton?
I’m starting to see Microsoft blogging surpremo Robert Scoble as the Paris Hilton of the blogosphere: famous for being famous. He’s not an alpha geek, a deep thinker or a software design guru, but he towers above all in terms of links and attention. …
November 4th, 2005 at 6:29 am
Just now? He’s been that from the get-go. A parody caricature of himself with a big megaphone, as he was on the Userland crusp, maple-syruped in for the Longhorn hype deathmarch, now toting a video camera around playing the clueless yuk-yuk stand-up man.
Self-appointed microphones that don’t do anything other than network, name drop and make people ‘feel’ good, whilst getting invited to all the inner tech circles, all without anything solid to back it up.
Such creatures, tend to need constant care and ego-feeding, and are prone to random ranting fits and scorched-earth policies if the world doesn’t somehow go their way.
MediUM is the MESSage.
November 4th, 2005 at 10:39 am
Rate Limit: I don’t mean to nitpick (well, yes I do), but I don’t think this tiny issue is as clear as you think, Rob. On Google’s sign-up page:
http://www.google.com/apis/maps/signup.html
There is this:
“If you expect to get more than 50,000 page views per day, you must contact us to get permission to use the API. During this “pilot” period, Google Maps may not be able to accommodate very large web sites.”
November 4th, 2005 at 10:46 am
That’s funny, it works for me:
http://maps.yahoo.com/beta/index.php#tp=1&tt=Sushi&maxp=search&q1=Bellevue%252C%2520WA&trf=0&lon=-122.198867797852&lat=47.6122969882829&mag=6
November 5th, 2005 at 1:38 pm
[...] Fire Scoble. This man doesn’t deserve to blog, let alone work for you. [...]
November 5th, 2005 at 9:10 pm
“Now, let’s say I want to put a photo of the front of the store on the map for you to see. Let’s say I also want to take pictures of the menu. And write a little review.”
A9’s Yellow Pages… http://yp.a9.com/
It launched before Google Local did.
November 6th, 2005 at 4:54 pm
Randy: ahhh, so you have to use drop downs AND you have to type sushi into the box.
Google’s map is a lot simpler. You just type Sushi Bellevue WA into their SINGLE box and it works.
I didn’t even think that I needed to use multiple boxes.
November 7th, 2005 at 10:53 am
[...] Now they’ve gone and changed the web again with the Amazon Mechanical Turk - a web service for human minds. Not only that, but this is a remarkable effort at revenue sharing for peer producers - Anil Dash will no doubt be intrigued. If Web 2.0 is about people, peer-production and massive scalability, then by anyone’s standards Amazon has just launched the ultimate Web 2.0 product. As Scoble would say: Disruption! [...]
November 7th, 2005 at 3:51 pm
[...] It’s quite a kick to see what everyone at the event is doing and to bless it with no strings attached — it’s a bit of a cultural disruption, if you ask me — a sort of culture hack — I like it — I like it a lot. [...]
November 7th, 2005 at 7:30 pm
You say ‘Disruption’, however the rest of the world may well interpret it as ‘competition’.
The superbowl analogy is apt though. Google have effectively invented a new game here, it’s no wonder they play it better than everyone else. I’m sure the Google flock/horde/gaggle – hmmm Google gaggle, nice - would like nothing more than continuing to compete on their own terms. They’ll continue to compete and win right up until they or someone else invent the next big web app innovation. Yahoo and MS trying to emulate Google’s success by emulating functionality right down to the API level is unlikely to succeed.
If MS is seriously intent on creating a Google emulation division as their primary response to an emerging market then all is not well at Redmond.
There are surely quality people at MS that have the ability to innovate as opposed to respond. Perhaps the accountants eat them, who knows…
November 8th, 2005 at 1:48 am
[...] http://scobleizer.wordpress.com/2005/11/03/yahoos-new-pretty-maps-are-doomed-and-so-are-microsofts/ [...]
November 9th, 2005 at 4:45 am
“Using words like WTF is not professional - reflects badly on you.”
I HATE this. I think Dare was wrong to take offence at Scoble. But using WTF to express his feelings on a blog comment is not a question of “professionalism” for fuck’s sake! That’s the lunacy we’re trying to get away from.
Reminds me of a project manager I once had who told me it was being “unprofessional” to try to educate (in her eyes, confuse, scare) a customer about a potential problem.
November 9th, 2005 at 1:59 pm
A couple of comments:
1. Most folks who advertise with google aren’t making oodles of money. It’s the suckers that advertise on google that making google rich. Why suckers? Cause google doesn’t quality control the clicks- meaning anyone can waste your budget by simple clicking an reloading the page. For some very pricey keywords, this is a show-stopper.
2. Microsoft is really about 1 customer- the government- why? because the govt buys millions of dollars of licenses.
3. On microsoft’s side..a couple gems in the pipe:
Windows Workflow foundation, WinFS, Media center Editon…
OfficeLive and live and all the other internet apps still need to reside on the client- remember it’s still about the client…
November 11th, 2005 at 10:29 pm
[...] Yahoo’s new pretty maps are doomed (and so are Microsoft’s) [...]
November 14th, 2005 at 8:12 am
son todos unos putos de mierda vayanse a cagar y ablen en castellano
November 14th, 2005 at 8:12 am
google is a fuck
November 29th, 2005 at 5:07 am
[...] Despite the fact that some hate the term, “user-generated content” is a hot topic among newspapers and Web sites these days. [...]
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Brand new Motorola V6 **** 160 USD
Brand new Motorola A1010 **** 150 USD
Brand new Motorola E1060 **** 140 USD
Brand new Motorola V1050 **** 150 USD
Brand new Nokia 2100**** US$50
Brand new Nokia 2300**** US$60
Brand new Nokia 3100**** US$70
Brand new Nokia 3108**** US$60
Brand new Nokia 3200**** US$80
Brand new Nokia 3230**** US$100
Brand new Nokia 3300 - US$90
Brand new Nokia 3310**** US$30
Brand new Nokia 3315**** US$30
Brand new Nokia 3330**** US$30
Brand new Nokia 3350**** US$40
Brand new Nokia 3410**** US$40
Brand new Nokia 3510**** US$40
Brand new Nokia 3510i**** US$50
Brand new Nokia 3530**** US$50
Brand new Nokia 3595**** US$50
Brand new Nokia 3610**** US$60
Brand new Nokia 3650**** US$190
Brand new Nokia 3660**** US$200
Brand new Nokia 5100**** US$70
Brand new Nokia 5140**** US$110
Brand new Nokia 5210**** US$40
Brand new Nokia 5510**** US$105
Brand new Nokia 5550**** US$50
Brand new Nokia 5170iR**** US$40
Brand new Nokia 6020**** US$130
Brand new Nokia 6670**** US$105
Brand new Nokia 6630**** US$180
Brand new Nokia 6100**** US$80
Brand new Nokia 6108**** US$90
Brand new Nokia 6220**** US$110
Brand new Nokia 6230**** US$110
Brand new Nokia 6260**** US$140
Brand new Nokia 6310**** US$70
Brand new Nokia 6310i**** US$70
Brand new Nokia 6500**** US$60
Brand new Nokia 6510**** US$60
Brand new Nokia 6600**** US$140
Brand new Nokia 6610**** US$80
Brand new Nokia 6630**** US$180
Brand new Nokia 6170**** US$150
Brand new Nokia 6650**** US$90
Brand new Nokia 6800**** US$105A
Brand new Nokia 6820**** US$110
Brand new Nokia 7200**** US$185
Brand new Nokia 7210 Turquoise**** US$100
Brand new Nokia 7230**** US$120
Brand new Nokia 7250**** US$120
Brand new Nokia 7250i**** US$120
Brand new Nokia 7260**** US$140
Brand new Nokia 7280**** US$140
Brand new Nokia 7600**** US$170
Brand new Nokia 7610**** US$200
Brand new Nokia 7650**** US$160
Brand new Nokia 8250**** US$65
Brand new Nokia 8310**** US$90
Brand new Nokia 8910 Titanium**** US$160
Brand new Nokia 8910 Black**** US$165
Brand new Nokia 8910i**** US$185
Brand new Nokia 8890**** US$115
Brand new Nokia 8800**** US$220:00
Brand new Nokia 8850 Special Edition**** US$105
Brand new Nokia 8850 Gold Edition**** US$120
Brand new Nokia 8855**** US$125
Brand new Nokia 9210 Communicator**** US$195
Brand new Nokia 9210i Communicator**** US$195
Brand new Nokia N-Gage**** US$110
Brand new Nokia 9300 (communicator)**** US$200
Brand new Nokia 9500 (communicator)**** US$210
Brand new Sony Ericsson P800**** US$155
Brand new Sony Ericsson P900**** US$205
Brand new Sony Ericsson P910i**** US$210
Brand new Sony Ericsson T20e**** US$35
Brand new Sony Ericsson T20s**** US$39
Brand new Sony Ericsson T28s**** US$39
Brand new Sony Ericsson T28 World**** US$45
Brand new Sony Ericsson T29s**** US$49
Brand new Sony Ericsson T100**** US$30
Brand new Sony Ericsson T105**** US$35
Brand new Sony Ericsson T200**** US$45
Brand new Sony Ericsson T230**** US$55
Brand new Sony Ericsson T300**** US$55
Brand new Sony Ericsson T310**** US$50
Brand new Sony Ericsson T600**** US$69
Brand new Sony Ericsson T610**** US$130
Brand new Sony Ericsson T630**** US$135
Brand new Sony Ericsson T68i**** US$105
Brand new Sony Ericsson T68m**** US$110
Brand new Sony Ericsson Z200**** US$100
Brand new Sony Ericsson Z600**** US$170
Brand new Sony CMD-J5**** US$30
Brand new Sony CMD-Z7**** US$35
Brand new Sony CMD-J7**** US$40
Brand new Sony CMD-J6**** US$40
Brand new Sony CMD-Z5**** US$90
Brand new Sony CMD-MZ5**** US$155
Brand new Sony Ericsson R520m**** US$100
Brand new Sony Ericsson R380 World**** US$90
Brand new Sony Ericsson R380s**** US$105
Brand new Sony Ericsson R600**** US$35
Brand new Sony Ericsson S700**** US$175
Brand new Sony Ericsson K500i**** US$180
Brand new Sony Ericsson K700i**** US$189
Brand new Samsung SGH A200**** US$50
Brand new Samsung SGH A300**** US$40
Brand new Samsung SGH A500**** US$70
Brand new Samsung SGH A800**** US$70
Brand new Samsung SGH C100**** US$85
Brand new Samsung SGH E400**** US$125
Brand new Samsung SGH E600**** US$129
Brand new Samsung SGH E700**** US$130
Brand new Samsung SGH E715**** US$155
Brand new Samsung SGH-E810**** US$140
Brand new Samsung SGH-E820**** US$150
Brand new Samsung SGH-E800**** US$155
Brand new Samsung SGH-E850**** US$140
Brand new Samsung SGH D410**** US$150
Brand new Samsung SGH D500**** US$155
Brand new Samsung SGH P400**** US$135
Brand new Samsung SGH P510**** US$139
Brand new Samsung SGH N188**** US$110
Brand new Samsung SGH N288**** US$60
Brand new Samsung SGH N500**** US$60
Brand new Samsung SGH N620**** US$60
Brand new Samsung SGH M100**** US$45
Brand new Samsung SGH P400**** US$140
Brand new Samsung SGH P410**** US$145
Brand new Samsung SGH P500**** US$155
Brand new Samsung SGH Q105**** US$40
Brand new Samsung SGH Q300****- US$70
Brand new Samsung SGH R220**** US$30
Brand new Samsung SGH R225**** US$25
Brand new Samsung SGH S100**** US$90
Brand new Samsung SGH S200**** US$100
Brand new Samsung SGH S300**** US$105
Brand new Samsung SGH S307**** US$130
Brand new Samsung SGH S500**** US$109
Brand new Samsung SGH T100**** US$100
Brand new Samsung SGH S105**** US$35
Brand new Samsung SGH T200**** US$125
Brand new Sams