HP has major ethical problem, day 3
Let’s check in with Google News. Nope, ethical problem still there.
John Furrier, my new boss, used to work at Hewlett Packard. Last night he was telling me how much he loved Hewlett Packard (he hates the new name, which was shortened to “HP”. Yeah, all the employees used to call it “HP” in the old days too, but that was a friendly shortening). He told me how he walked into the founder’s offices once (it wasn’t guarded or closed off separate from the employees) and walked up and said hi. It was an experience that he’ll never forget. He spent a bit telling me about “the Hewlett Packard way” and how it was such an important part of his upbringing as an entrepreneur.
He gave me a little bit of heck for dragging HP into this since it looks like it was just the chairwoman (although the rest of the board is sort of tainted because they didn’t walk out instantly when they found out what was going on). He stood up for the regular employees of HP. “Imagine you’re working in sales at HP, does this affect them?”
I’ve been thinking about that one all night. On one level, obviously no. But, on another? Yes. If your leaders are willing to break the law and spy on not just themselves but on outside parties, how comfortable will people be in dealing with Hewlett Packard?
Anyway, he told me that the Hewlett Packard way is important (the old way, the one before they changed their name, before they started doing this crud) and he wondered if there’s something we can do to bring the Hewlett Packard way back?
Yes. Get rid of Patricia Dunn. Then let’s work together to talk about the cool stuff those engineers are building so the salespeople can feel proud again.
If you let a cancer hang out in your body (the body here being a company) it just gets worse. It’s surgery time. Who has the knife?
Oh, I worked a summer at Hewlett Packard when I was in high school on an assembly line. I agree that the people there were awesome. Just wanted to make it clear that this isn’t about them. Just about one board member who thought that the ends justified the means. If she’s allowed to stay, though, she’ll spread her cancer throughout HP and stain the entire organization. So, it’s time for the good people of Hewlett Packard to stand up and do the right thing. Get rid of the stain on the Hewlett Packard way.
Powered By 
September 8th, 2006 at 8:57 am
Hey Robert, just curious, you are going to attend the breakfast with Carly Fiorna in a couple weeks, right?
I think it’ll be interesting to get her perspective on a few things!
September 8th, 2006 at 9:05 am
HP has had ethical issues since their very beginning, stealing patent ideas from inventors.
September 8th, 2006 at 9:10 am
Ajay: I’m going to try to get there.
September 8th, 2006 at 9:30 am
Robert, thank you for continuing to keep the spotlight on this story along with the MSM. The arrogance of Ms. Dunn is so complete that I’m hoping that the employees of HP simply march into her office, pick her up, and toss her into the parking lot.
September 8th, 2006 at 9:30 am
Don’t the shareholders control who is on the board?
When you say “the good people of HP”, I assume you are referring to some group of shareholders?
September 8th, 2006 at 9:47 am
Over Reuters: Dunn says she didn’t know pre-texting was used and is appalled. This is crap. How on earth did she expect to get phone records without doing something illegal. This will come back to bite her.
September 8th, 2006 at 9:48 am
Robert - Just out of curiosity, why is there a mismatch between the number of comments indicated on the main page and the actual number of comments I see on the comments page?
September 8th, 2006 at 9:49 am
Nevermind. Mea culpa.
September 8th, 2006 at 9:53 am
This really ain’t gonna go away, “HP spied on journalists”, spying on journalists? In terms of press coverage that is like killing a cop, the whole pack will descend on you forever and ever.
Board Members are one thing, but extend that to the journos, well they aren’t going to forgive, nor let this go. Six months of coverage, easy.
September 8th, 2006 at 9:57 am
[...] Robert Scoble and I were talking last night about HP and the shitstorm that they are in. He summarizes my thoughts in his blog post. Hewlett-Packard Company was a great company. Their DNA is everywhere in the best valley companies and through the world. I feel for the employees. Demand that they give you the company back. Put the employees in control put innovation in their hands. [...]
September 8th, 2006 at 10:14 am
Robert,
I really don’t like this way of talking.
Sure, you are describing unacceptable behaviour.
Her behaviour seems almost like violence, which is something we must discourage at all costs.
But using the language of personal abuse, like referring to people’s attitude as cancer and talking about surgery and using a knife, this is just not the kind of language we want people to use about each other.
It is the language of hatred and brutality.
You are better than this old fashioned macho stuff.
Hate the sin and love the sinner is the way you will get people who do bad stuff to change.
Hating the sinner, telling people to hate the sinner, this may motivate others to do worse things to her than you wouln ever contemplate, things which, if they did them, would be something you wouldn’t want on your consience.
Unless you believe she could never change.
Believing people cannot change is a recipe for treating them as being things like cancer.
There was a war fought against people who saw certain types of people as BEING an incurable disease, and the treatment started with long knives and got worse.
The best thing you could be doing with this woman is having a CONVERSATION with her, finding out why she did what she did and whether she would do things differently in the light of the repercussions.
Now that you have used such bitter language about her, she would probably think you were the last person she could ever have a conversation with.
Why did you think that conversation-killing language would help the rest of us learn the most we could about what went on in her head?
We need to learn how to have the thoughts the she had, the perceived opportunities and threats she saw, and see alternative ways of dealing with them, alternatives to treating people in a way that we wouldn’t want to be treated.
Only real conversations are going to deliver those kinds of insights.
We really need your conversations, they always produce unexpected gems.
Don’t shut them down or prevent them from happening, even when righteous indignation seems to be absolutely the right response.
September 8th, 2006 at 10:38 am
There’s got to be a way to stand up to one person no matter how powerful she is. Companies get pulled down all the time by high up people who make bad decisions and the lower people who let the ones being stupid rule the company. The people underneath have a responsibility to stand up to people like that.
September 8th, 2006 at 10:52 am
Off the subject,
Robert,
I noticed you linked to you bio on wkipedia, looks good.
As far as HP goes, with all of the corporate corruption that has been uncovered, this too will pass and hopefully the watchdogs will be meaner
September 8th, 2006 at 11:22 am
I’ve seen this Golden Line in a newsgroup:
“I’m a writer. If you work for HP, don’t call me.”
Classic:-)
September 8th, 2006 at 11:56 am
How about this news:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB115773006173257658.html?mod=technology_main_whats_news
“Hewlett-Packard Co. Chairman Patricia Dunn said she was “appalled” to belatedly learn that “pretext calls” were made to obtain phone records as part of the company’s boardroom-leak investigation.”
Sounds a little bit like hiring a hit-man to “eliminate the competition” and then saying “but I didn’t know they were going to KILL anyone!”
She is either stupid, or lying. In either case, the big bucks that go with these jobs should carry big responsibilities with them. Should a high flying exec have to establish a pattern of mistakes before being terminated? No, no, and absolutely no. The experience that (theoretically) qualified them for such a high position should have rendered them immune from the sort of mistakes us “ordinary” folk might make.
(Of course I would have fired Ballmer a long time ago too, I really have no patience with these prima donnas)
September 8th, 2006 at 12:28 pm
Thank you Robert for the good words about HP’s people. We’re all getting tarred by the big brush right now, and I appreciate what you said here. In fact you and John’s post started me thinking about how we could get to HP Way 2.0. Thanks.
September 8th, 2006 at 12:49 pm
>referring to people’s attitude as cancer and talking about surgery and using a knife, this is just not the kind of language we want people to use about each other.
Normally I’d agree with you but we’re not talking about someone’s “attitude.”
We’re talking about someone who broke the freaking law and who spied on people around her.
That’s a cancer and needs to be removed.
Sorry, there’s no other way to say it. It’s THAT clear!
September 8th, 2006 at 12:51 pm
Mac Beach: let’s see if I got this right. She handed over other people’s social security and phone numbers and didn’t have a clue what would be done with them?
And then after she learned the information she didn’t ask “how did you get these phone records?”
Yeah, right. If that’s true she’s even worse than criminal. She takes us for idiots too.
September 8th, 2006 at 1:00 pm
Ricky:
Ah??
“The best thing you could be doing with this woman is having a CONVERSATION with her, finding out why she did what she did and whether she would do things differently in the light of the repercussions.”
Yes, I believe she would have tried harder not to get caught if she had known about the repercussions.
It is silly, but the best indicator that they feel they’ve done nothing wrong (regardless of “pretexting”) is that they have not said they’re sorry.
…”the rest of us learn the most we could about what went on in her head?”
Learn what went on in her head? She is not a child, we do not need to know “what went on in her head”, she needs to take responsibility, apologize and/or quit. She is the chairwoman of HP, not a teenager who took a car for a joyride or spent the night away without permission.
Omar
September 8th, 2006 at 1:01 pm
Dinh, a former U.S. assistant attorney general, said HP could face criminal liability even if outside entities acted on its behalf.
“You don’t escape criminal liability under the law doing an ostrich dance by sticking your head in the sand and say ‘I want to see no evil, hear no evil, or speak no evil’,” he said. “You bear responsibility for the actions of your agent, especially if you had implicitly or explicitly authorized that agent to employ that illegal means.”
Best. Quote. Of the Day.
from:
http://news.moneycentral.msn.com/provider/providerarticle.asp?feed=OBR&Date=20060908&ID=6006552
September 8th, 2006 at 1:03 pm
Patricia has no plans to resign, but will do so if the board asks her to… yeesh, she’s holding herself SO accountable here - NOT.
http://today.reuters.com/news/articleinvesting.aspx?type=governmentFilingsNews&storyID=2006-09-08T174349Z_01_N08388729_RTRIDST_0_TECH-HEWLETTPACKARD-UPDATE-1.XML
September 8th, 2006 at 2:15 pm
Breakfast with Carly Fiorna? Ain’t that sorta like a March 15th Senate floor meeting with Caius Julius Caesar.
Carlyius Fiorna Caesar, nice ring eh?
September 8th, 2006 at 3:14 pm
[...] Of course, the Hewlett Packard BoD fiasco has been absolutely fascinating (and horrifying) - Scoble is keeping tabs on it: Day 1, Day 2, Day 3, Day 4 [...]
September 8th, 2006 at 3:31 pm
Robert — it’s interesting how this ties to MSFT too.
I used to work at HP when the founders were still there. HP had a soul that was created by the founders through the HP Way, the Garage, Management by Walking Around, and the Bench Test (if an Engineer next to you on the bench thought your invest was cool, it could turn into a product). But that soul started fading when Bill and Dave retired — and a lot of talent left HP. The soul died when they both died (and soon after Carly joined HP - when the rest of the talent left HP). Since then, it felt like just another soul-less corporate machine.
Now jump to MSFT — I left HP to join MSFT. I see MSFT as about 5 to 10 years behind HP in corporate maturity and I see MSFT going in a lot of similar directions that HP did. MSFT still has a soul today, and is an interesting place to work. However, as Billg starts retiring, and other departures (Brianv) - how much longer will the soul remain?
September 8th, 2006 at 3:43 pm
It gets better and better:
“I am not happy that the way this investigation has been conducted has led to this major embarrassment,” Dunn said in an interview with CNET News.com.
She is obviously not happy that it investigation led to the embarrassment, but she is still quite happy with the investigation itself (if it did not go public).
September 8th, 2006 at 3:48 pm
The word I don’t want to read in blogs anymore…
The word is: conversation.
What’s wrong with that rather innocent word? Scoble and his commenters seem to love it. The topic under consideration is the ongoing privacy scandal at HP, where chairwoman Patricia Dunn apparently authorized the h…
September 8th, 2006 at 3:55 pm
Michael, yeah. Last night I was talking with a few high-powered Silicon Valley types and they said stuff like this goes on all the time but we never hear about it. Well, that’s exactly why a message must be sent now. And a harsh one.
I totally agree with TechDirt and with you. No moral compass, just embarrassment at getting caught: http://techdirt.com/articles/20060908/145105.shtml
September 8th, 2006 at 4:03 pm
Brainwagon: I totally agree with your post here:
http://brainwagon.org/archives/2006/09/08/2149/
It gets just worse and worse. Look at Dunn’s latest: http://news.com.com/2100-1014_3-6113715.html
She is still doing the “ends justify the means” thing. She still doesn’t get it. And who handed over the board member’s social security numbers and phone numbers to this “private investigator firm?” Some low-level area associate? Give me a break.
If I tried to pull this crap I’d be out on the street without a severance package.
September 8th, 2006 at 4:19 pm
News on MSNBC is that the board called an emergency meeting probably for tomorrow. That should be interesting. If you really care about this, go to the HP BOD web page and “Mail the Board” and tell them what you think before their meeting.
September 8th, 2006 at 4:30 pm
I agree with your stance on HP. I’ve never really liked their products (great quality and support, but too intrusive an installation and a sense of NIH syndrome). Nonetheless, I thought of them as a good company.
My question is, why do you seem to be treating this differently than you did Sony? To recap, Sony has faked movie reviews, installed malware and spyware, and treats consumers of its music and movies like criminals. I don’t remember you calling for the ouster of the Sony CEO for their behavior. Why is HP worse? Isn’t Sony worse for its treatment of thousands of customers, where HP just spied on itself and a few journalists?
September 8th, 2006 at 5:16 pm
Dave: I probably should have gone after Sony too, but I can’t do every case like this. This hit home cause HP is such a big part of my childhood and belief system.
September 8th, 2006 at 5:38 pm
Dunn says, “I didn’t know.” She ordered the probe and didn’t bother to ask? What kind of chairman of a Fortune 500 company is that? Doesn’t ask how? My foot.
Media need to be much more aggressive on this. Worries me that they haven’t filed suit against HP already. Sends the wrong signal. Why would I ever talk frankly off-the-record to a reporter again if there’s a chance some company is going to set its goons on me?
The ramifications of this story seem to be lost on so many people it astounds me. Maybe you have to be a journalist to get it.
This is about freedom. Without a free, unfettered press what is America? Not even the FBI is allowed to do what HP did without first going before a judge with evidence.
And why is HP trying to gag its directors? They don’t work for the company. They are representatives of the shareholders, period. They are grown up, high capable people.
They owe a duty to protect the company, and if you read the article that got Dunn upset, it’s actually a really positive piece about a HP directors retreat where they thrashed out issues on the company’s strategy.
The only negative thing I saw in it was that Dunn made the directors work from early morning to 10 at night with only breaks for meals. What, she didn’t like being made out to be a bitch in the press so she ordered a probe that turned into the most damaging PR fiasco in history?
September 8th, 2006 at 7:09 pm
Part of what makes this so jarring is the incongruity of HP’s history of high corporate values and integrity with with the behavior we see at present.
Many years ago back at HP, I participated in an immersive / role-playing workshop as part of their internal executive training process, in which you were presented with an opportunity to lie/cheat/steal in support of your business objective. At the time, it was considered a grave error if you went down that path, and would probably get you bounced off the executive track.
This sort of thing has and undoubtedly still does continue among companies here in the valley. It’s sad and bizarre seeing it at HP, though.
September 8th, 2006 at 7:57 pm
Bottom Line for me - Are Directors employees in a legal and privacy sense? I just want to understand the issue in this context. That is, if Dunn was using private assets, isn’t the issue confidentially agreement related? Were these violated?
Thanks - I’d appreciate any coments.
September 8th, 2006 at 8:35 pm
Digger,
Directors aren’t employees. They are elected by the company’s owners or shareholders. That’s often not recognized, even by boards.
Dunn used the company’s security department to carry out the investigation. The company — or management — was investigating its owners’ representatives, who are supposed to be watching management on their shareholders’ behalf.
September 8th, 2006 at 10:27 pm
@31 You have a belief system based on a company????? Scary.
September 8th, 2006 at 11:40 pm
She’s still on the punish the leakers bit, something doesn’t smell right, a long-term board vet suddenly leaking? More sounds like some of the Directors were unhappy with the plan, and expressing discontent, that became “leaking”. Healthy companies don’t play up conspiracy theories, or target short-sellers or go paranoia city.
With “leaking”, it’s all relative, just like Scoble and others could get away with breaking NDAs left and right at Microsoft, but some front-line trooper that did nothing, yet wasn’t a “team player”, was always falsely saddled with breaking NDAs and leaking. It’s common practice to besmirch enemies with ‘leaking’…come guys, doncha know basic Wash DC-styled Political Warfare games? A leaker is not always a real leaker, sometimes (and more than you would think) he/she is just not on the program.
And extreme paranoia over leakers is crippling at best, and Stalinist at worst. But so much for her skills, tons of ways of filtering out and giving the suspected source tainted info and seeing where the blood shows up, or marking certain docs, no laws broken. Freshman CIA spy craft 101.
And this has long since been apart of Corporate Culture, once you join a Board, you are basically surrendering any shed of privacy, the price you pay. This stuff goes on daily. HP’s arrogance and overreach killed them here.
September 8th, 2006 at 11:55 pm
“Power always thinks it has a great soul and vast views beyond the comprehension of the weak; and that it is doing God’s service when it is violating all his laws.” - John Adams
September 9th, 2006 at 12:38 am
Sorry, but the government is already doing stuff like this due to the Patriot Act. AT&T giving the Bush Administration information on their customers without a search warrant.
September 9th, 2006 at 1:10 am
Media need to be much more aggressive on this. Worries me that they haven’t filed suit against HP already.
Ever worked in the journo biz? Ummm, pot calling kettle black. Media ain’t gonna sue, if they do, they are stupid, companies will just fight back libel-style. Besides journalists make misrepresentational-styled pretexting and other iffy private-eyeish methods a daily newsroom practice. The fact some got burnt, all parta the job. Too risky suing, opens up a can of uncontrollable worms. The aggression will come in the form of non-stop wall to wall coverage for weeks and constant revisits and snarky ironic jokes forever. Besides they are already gathering dirt a mile high…
September 9th, 2006 at 1:57 am
@40, I’m worried that the rot has started already.
Groklaw - an independent FOSS-friendly law-focused blog - posted a couple of articles on this HP case yesterday. I go to Groklaw today and can’t get to it.
Chilling effect?
September 9th, 2006 at 4:44 am
[...] As the saga deepens (company not only shocked, but now also “embarrassed”), calls for Dunn’s resignation, if not yet a symphony, are certainly a chorus. The FCC is now involved. A board meeting tomorrow may decide Dunn’s fate. [...]
September 9th, 2006 at 7:15 am
You don’t get entire picture folks.
The original person who has leaked information to public put entire company at risk. There was reason why information was made confidential.
Sure - information on somebody phone calls is also private - so both sides did wrong. But one side did this for his own benefit, while another did for company one (or at least believed so).
September 9th, 2006 at 9:43 am
[...] Two recent technology events have me wondering about privacy: how much users, workers, and citizens alike are willing to accept in this age of digital everything sprayed across the internet, and power of the network, both to invade our privacy and empower us. First is Facebook, some Web 2.0 social network which set up some sort of info feed that broadcast a bit too much information about users than they were comfortable with. The result: protests, complaints all across the blogosphere. To Facebook’s credit, they now have recognized the issues people were having and are working to rectify them, including a nice apology on their blog. It’s nice to see a company that listens to its users and works to improve their product, bringing the ideas of open source to the way they run their company, not just the software. So Facebook made a stupid move with the technology, but they can admit a mistake, apologize, and willingness to correct it based on user feedback is refreshing. This philosophy doesn’t seem to have caught on yet at HP, another tech company with a problem, where the current CEO Patricia Dunn has been accused of running an internal investigation on HP board members to figure out where leaks of confidential information were coming from. This is a case of the means not justifying the end, and the resulting SEC investigation and embarassment will likely cost HP more in terms of brand image than the leaks themselves. Meanwhile, blogger Scoble cals for Dunn’s resignation. It’s up in the air whether HP will listen to the public or its own board. [...]
September 9th, 2006 at 9:49 am
[...] Somehow I don’t think the Dave Packard or Bill Hewlett would duck the blame for actions taken by people working directly for them. After all, this isn’t like asking a corporate chairperson to put her neck in the noose for something done four levels away. But HP Chair Patricia Dunn today defended her role in an inquiry into a boardroom leak that has led the California Attorney General to open an investigation, and said she has no plans to resign unless asked by the board. [...]
September 9th, 2006 at 10:27 am
The original person who has leaked information to public put entire company at risk. There was reason why information was made confidential.
Ends justifies the means, eh? And who is to say any leaking actually happened? I have seen lots of companies spread public domain info, only to later call it ‘confidential’ when the spin doesn’t go their way. Maybe this ‘leak’ was a ‘gotcha’. Ex post facto?
The arrogance of Patricia Dunn is amazing, truly amazing, any non-tech company that deals with real PR, would of asked for her head, nearly second of, emergency vote, no dilly-dallying for days. I don’t know why HP is letting itself get dragged through the mud.
September 9th, 2006 at 12:56 pm
Robert, I am more inclined to Rickey’s council than your ad hominem stuff about HP leadership.
For one thing, you have no skin in this game (any more than does Steve Gilmor when he rants for the firing of specific Microsoft executives). Secondly, this is not an election and you are not on a jury. Commenting on their lack of transparency, and on the comparison with Ford Motor Company (FMC to its friends and family) are useful.
Calling for the guillotine is not very appropriate. It doesn’t leave much room for redemption. It doesn’t cultivate much mutual understanding and room for cleaning things up and putting in corrections for future conduct. We are all in the peanut gallery here, and that makes our posturing ridiculous.
September 9th, 2006 at 1:03 pm
orcmid: I do have SOME skin in this game. We all do. If we allow corporations to run amok over our privacy then we all lose. And, how can we punish someone with hundreds of millions of dollars in their bank account? One way I can? To be merciless with my words.
September 9th, 2006 at 2:01 pm
[...] http://scobleizer.wordpress.com/2006/09/08/hp-has-major-ethical-problem-day-3/ [...]
September 9th, 2006 at 2:40 pm
@48 I thought you said you weren’t going to be taking credit for any of this?
September 9th, 2006 at 3:50 pm
Credit? Who was taking credit? I said I had skin in the game and that I was using my words. Which is pretty obvious. But, who’ll be the one who really keeps the heat on? Me, or CNNMoney? http://money.cnn.com/2006/09/08/commentary/wastler/?postversion=2006090816
I vote for CNNMoney.
September 9th, 2006 at 8:31 pm
[...] our attention-based power? When is it an abuse to publically single out a person to be fired? Comments [0] Name [...]
September 9th, 2006 at 9:43 pm
I get that we are all stakeholders in how our society works, and having it work well. But I don’t think voting in newspaper surveys on whether or not we think XYZ (the popular XYZ was O.J when the papers really got stupid about this) was guilty or not is a contribution to civil participation.
I understand this situation isn’t exactly like that, but it is a bit like the spectator’s calling for a gladiator’s execution.
Maybe worse. We don’t have all of the facts, and we’re not in a position to have them. And we shouldn’t rush to judgment. However the HP board’s leak-stoppage fiasco plays out, we won’t know much until it is over. This is not one of those situations that gets handled by a blog response.
October 11th, 2006 at 12:29 am
Be sure to check out Karel Baloun’s book (and related blogsite): Inside Facebook at
http://www.fbbook.com
Thanks,
Ted